is jose abreu related to bobby abreuis jose abreu related to bobby abreu
Staub, beloved by fans of the Montreal Expos and New York Mets, is one of those players from the 1970s that some people feel deserved a closer look at the Hall. In 2006, Abreu led the major leagues in walks (124), pitches per plate appearance (4.45), and number of pitches seen (3,056), and was second in the major leagues in percent of plate appearances that were walks (18.5%),[15] and led the AL in percentage of pitches taken (66.2), and in walks per plate appearance (.181), third in batting average on balls in play (.375),[15] eighth in on-base percentage (.424), 18th in stolen bases (30), and 19th in doubles (41). He has a special bond with Alexei Ramirez, Dayan Viciedo, Adrian Nieto, who are also from Cuba, along with other Latinos on the team. vs. [1] In 2007, Abreu was second in the AL in runs (123), third in pitches per plate appearance (4.38), ninth in games (158) and times on base (258), and tenth in walks (84) and plate appearances (699). in games played (162) twice, in doubles once (50 in 2002), triples once (11 in 1999), and walks once (124 in 2006) but otherwise never led his league in any major statistical category. On February 12, 2009, Abreu signed a $5million, one-year deal with the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, and was expected to play left field. He grew up in a well-settled family so it was easy for him to pursue his dream of becoming a professional baseball player. Abreu is a two-time All-Star, and has won a Use without license or authorization is expressly prohibited. His 1,476 walks are the 20th most in the history of baseball. In the end, I couldnt ignore that he finished his career with more WAR, homers, stolen bases, and a better OPS than more than half of the current Hall of Fame outfielders. Gary Sheffield Inches Closer but Remains Far Outside the Hall of Fame, Carlos Beltran Joins the 2023 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot. Abreu led the N.L. Javascript is required for the selection of a player. Even a casual baseball fan should know the name Bobby Abreu but I doubt very many of you have ever given a second thought to him being worthy of the Hall of Fame. Afterward, teammate Jimmy Rollins proclaimed Abreu the King of Venezuela.. Total Zone Rating and initial framework for Wins above Replacement calculations provided by Sean Smith. Finally, Hall of Fame voting is often a contest between contemporary players at the same position. Jones played in 150+ games for 11 consecutive seasons but then fell off a cliff, averaging 87 games played in his final 5 campaigns. Flix Hernndez: No Longer a Future King of Cooperstown. Manny Machado to San Diego; did the Padres sign a Future Hall of Famer? The Chicago Cubs are expected to pursue free-agent first baseman Jos Abreu this offseason, according to Bruce Levine of 670 The Score. On August 6, Abreu hit his 250th career home run when he led off the fifth inning with a solo home run off Chicago White Sox pitcher John Danks. "For me, I had just one thought: I wanted to provide my mom, sister, my kid, my dad with things I couldn't provide them in Cuba," said Abreu, who is from Cienfuegos. Although he has not talked about his parents, he has shared a close relationship with his mother. Should Donnie Baseball Be in the Hall of Fame? [35][36] However, just four days later on August 14, the Mets re-signed Abreu to another minor league contract. Its a spot in the order where the player is expected to drive in runs. He was one of the most well balanced and all-around great players. RELATED: Jose Abreu wants to play baseball in 2023 Abreu has earned Rookie of the Year, MVP, three All-Star nods and three Silver Sluggers since arriving on the team. Still, According to the website Wikileaks they mentioned that Brian and Bobby Abreu play baseball, their profession is the same, but they are not related. At 39, Abreu could not find a job in 2013 and then spent the 2014 season mostly as a pinch-hitter for the New York Mets. GLENDALE, Ariz. -- There's a worn-out black batting tee and an old bucket of practice baseballs in the last batting cage that's produced a soundtrack in the past three weeks at White Sox camp, and the instruments are at work again. He signed a contract with the Astros as an international free agent. Hes a pretty good company for Slaughter and Smith. Phillies manager Terry Francona installed Abreu into a starting role in right field and the 24-year-old responded with a magnificent inaugural campaign, hitting .312 with a .409 OBP and .497 SLG. Tony Gwynn, like Abreu, was a portly left-handed batter who nonetheless stole 300+ bases, but he was a slap hitter who couldn't stay in the lineup. [43], In 2,425 games over 18 seasons, Abreu posted a .291 batting average (2,470-for-8,480) with 1,453 runs, 574 doubles, 59 triples, 288 home runs, 1,363 RBI, 400 stolen bases, 1,476 bases on balls, .395 on-base percentage and .475 slugging percentage. Not sure if this alters your opinion but Abreu and Barry Bonds are the only 2 players in MLB history with 400+ SB, 1,350+ RBI, and 1,400+ BB over a career. Your elevator speech should be something along these lines: There have been better base stealers, run producers, home run hitters, and on base guys (although not many), but there has been virtually no one who excelled at all of them like Bobby Abreu. Known as "Pito" in Cuba, Abreu's new White Sox teammates quickly embraced him, nicknaming him "Yogi" and "Oso," the Spanish word for bear because of his size and strength. Abreu was involved in many events in the Philadelphia and Delaware Valley communities. Despite a then-record-setting performance in the 2005 Home Run Derby, he wasnt a home run hitter. Besides Bonds, the 12 others are not just Hall of Famers but almost all first-ballot Hall of Famers (Lou Gehrig, Babe Ruth, Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, Ted Williams, Henderson, Joe Morgan, Mickey Mantle, Jimmie Foxx, Mel Ott, Schmidt and Jeff Bagwell). Whether he is in the cage or in pre-workouts or on the field, he has a purpose, and you can tell this is a guy who takes what he does very seriously and wants to maximize his talent.". There are dozens of Hall of Fame players (mostly from the first half of the 20th century) that were inferior to Abreu. The Phillies have launched a campaign for Abreu, so let's take The point was that there are four people with 250 HR and 350 SB who are NOT in the Hall of Fame. Buster Posey Retires: What are his Hall of Fame Chances? Back in Cuba, the 27-year-old hit hundreds of balls each day, because the field was his sanctuary, a refuge where no one, not even Fidel Castro or his oppressive government, could touch him. In 2000, he finished fourth in the league in triples (10), sixth in doubles (42), seventh in walks (100), and ninth in OBP (.416). Bobby Abreu played for 6 teams; the Houston Astros, Philadelphia Phillies, New York Yankees, Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, Los Angeles Dodgers and New York Mets. He also noted the organization publicly recognized his career achievements and consistently delivered opportunities to succeed in the postseason, saying, "This is a team that gives you an opportunity always to be in the playoffs. And, yes, Abreu scored more runs (1,453) than Gwynn (1,383). On the other hand, he does have a sibling sister who likes to remain away from the spotlights; hence unknown to the public. As you can see, Bobby Abreu does indeed have a strong argument for the Hall of Fame. In the present day, his performance hasn't dropped. Abreu said he lives a quiet life off the field. It's also available for football, basketball and hockey. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. So, Abreus position on this list is not necessarily an indicator that he is unworthy of the Hall of Fame but an indicator of why hes having a rough time with the BBWAA voters because he never had the wow factor that Guerrero and Jones had. "I like to be at home and have my time for my music, to watch news, read the Bible. Scores from any date in Major League history, Minor, Foreign, College, & Black Baseball, Frequently Asked Questions about MLB and Baseball, Subscribe to Stathead Baseball: Get your first month FREE. Consistent excellence deserves to be applauded., Eno Sarris, The Athletic (Jan. 8, 2023). But Abreu is also making an effort to reach out to his non-Spanish-speaking teammates. On July 30, 2006, Abreu was traded along with Cory Lidle to the New York Yankees for minor league shortstop C. J. Henry (a 2005 first-round draft pick), left-hander Matt Smith (a seven-year minor league veteran), catcher Jesus Sanchez, and right-hander Carlos Monasteriosall low-level prospects in the Yankee organization. He posted on-base percentages of .400 or higher eight times (.395 for his career) thanks to his ability to take a walk (100 or more eight years in a row). Or at least a case against him. Its pretty simple. Dusty Baker Gets His Ring, Clinches His Plaque in Cooperstown, Bruce Bochy Heads to Texas, Delaying His Cooperstown Coronation, Mike Trout, now 30, already a future Hall of Famer, Max Scherzer Adds Another Milestone to His Hall of Fame Case, Justin Verlanders Inexorable March towards the Hall of Fame, Forget Koufax Comps; Clayton Kershaw is Going to the Hall of Fame Anyway, Zack Greinkes Hall of Fame Odds after Game 7 Disappointment, Hall of Fame Chances for Bryce Harper, Now a Postseason Star. "Having a positive mentality, swing the ball at the right places and, God willing, if it leaves the yard or not, it's up to him," Abreu said. Only once (by Silver Slugger) was he recognized as the best-hitting right fielder in his league. Hes getting overlooked. However, thanks to an outfield logjam, a fractured hand, and a poor attitude after a demotion to AAA, Abreu was left unprotected for the November 97 expansion draft. Although Abreu hit .300 with a .417 OBP in the next three games, the Tigers won all of them, bouncing the Bronx Bombers in the playoffs first round. Plus, theres this remarkable comparison between Abreu and another left-handed-swinging right fielder, the late Hall of Famer Tony Gwynn: Thats a different way of saying that Abreus career .395 on-base percentage was superior to Gwynns .388 career OBP, despite the eight-time batting champion having a huge edge in batting average (.338 to .291). In April 2012, having lost the DH job to Kendrys Morales, Abreu was released. He was voted a starter in the NL outfield for the All-Star Game, finishing second in fan voting, behind St. Louis Cardinals outfielder Jim Edmonds. WebBryan Abreu. Twice when walking 100 times, Abreu fell just shy of 100 runs (99 scored in 2003, 98 in 2006). [20] In 2009, he led the AL in errors by an outfielder, with 8. He also set career lows (as a full-timer) with 8 HR, 60 RBI, and 54 Runs. Embed from Getty Imageswindow.gie=window.gie||function(c){(gie.q=gie.q||[]).push(c)};gie(function(){gie.widgets.load({id:'8zCWRNQ7Rud9prfpeUFLNQ',sig:'n62U_wIfb1W75yLzECeaU4kaQDUovwOEd-PvC-FWBrI=',w:'594px',h:'396px',items:'120118099',caption: false ,tld:'com',is360: false })}); In 2011, at the age of 37, Abreu served mostly as the teams designated hitter, playing in 142 games, his fewest since 1997. This isnt to say that Abreu was a better offensive performer than Gwynn (the Padres legend toiled in pitchers parks and in a less super-charged offensive era) but that its a lot closer than their first-ballot Hall of Fame support (97.6% for Gwynn, 5.5% for Abreu). He would have had more stolen bases, more times on base, more runs scoredbut he was even more valuable batting third or fourth, How many still-active players will, in the next 10 years, surpass what hes accomplished?. I watched Bobby Abreu play many years in Philly. The Chicago Cubs are expected to pursue free-agent first baseman Jos In the ALCS against Abreus former team (the Yankees), however, he hit just .160 with a .276 OBP. By using the play index tool on Baseball-References Stathead, we can see that in the history of baseball, the only other player to log 150+ games in 13 consecutive seasons is Willie Mays. Despite only 15 home runs, he drove in 107 and scored 98 while drawing an MLB-best 124 bases on balls. [32], On March 31, 2014, Abreu signed a minor league deal with the New York Mets. Thats what this piece was all about. He was announced as a pinch hitter but did not get to bat because he was subsequently pinch hit for himself with Mike Simms. He only hit .260 with 6 home runs after the Mid-Summer Classic. He played over 150 games for 13 straight years!, Well, not quite, but he was 20th all-time in walks!, He walked 100 times and scored 100 runs eight times!, So, other people walked him and other people drove him in.. Bob Kelly Abreu was born on March 11, 1974, in Maracay, Venezuela. Bobby Abreu hit 3rd in the lineup in 67% of his career plate appearances. Bobby > Helton. How many still-active players will, in the next 10 years, surpass what hes accomplished? That line wasnt written very well. If youre a mild Hall of Fame enthusiast, you might have read something like this in the postscript of the January 2019 BBWAA election of four players: the ballot is much less clogged in the next two years, with Derek Jeter the only obvious Hall of Famer becoming eligible in 2020 and no obvious candidates in 2021. If you read those exact words, thanks for visiting Cooperstown Cred. I stand by those words, that Jeter was the only obvious Hall of Famer among those who became first-time eligible in 2020 and that there was no obvious inductee among the newcomers for 2021. Meanwhile, his Instagram includes a post where he celebrates Christmas and new year with two pretty ladies. In his first eight superb seasons in Philadelphia, playing mostly for Francona and Larry Bowa, the durable Abreu averaged. He debuts his MLB career with the Chicago sox. Bobby Abreu weighed 220 lbs (99 kg) when playing. Furthermore, the only 3 other players to accomplish this rare feat are Hall of Famers Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, and Ed Delahanty. Earlier, he used to play baseball for fun but later on, he decided to play it professionally and become a professional player of baseball. Logos were compiled by the amazing SportsLogos.net. That's my son Dariel Eduardo," Abreu said. Three did neither but stole over 800 bases (Rickey Henderson, Lou Brock, Tim Raines). The other two are Darrell Evans and Eddie Yost. [6] He finished his first season with five hits in 22 at-bats. How about a case for Konerko? Subscribe to Stathead Baseball: Get your first month FREEYour All-Access Ticket to the Baseball Reference Database. [1] He had the last stolen base in the original Yankee Stadium on September 21, 2008. Abreu, the 2020 AL MVP, gets $19.5 million in each of the next three seasons. Bobby Abreu had 288 home runs over his career. Still, unless you play in every game (like Ripken), its hard to build a Cooperstown argument based on games played. Abreu had no shortage of suitors when he defected from Cuba in 2013 -- and for good reason. You can argue it already has. Will Manny Ramirez Ever Be Manny in Cooperstown? Bobby Abreu had a .291 average over his career. Watch our How-To Videos to Become a Stathead, Subscribe to Stathead and get access to more data than you can imagine. He played in over 150 games for each of those 13 campaigns; he was the only player in MLB to accomplish this. The SPORTS REFERENCE and STATHEAD trademarks are owned exclusively by Sports Reference LLC. "[25], During the 20112012 offseason, the New York Yankees proposed a trade to the Angels that would have sent starting pitcher A. J. Burnett to Anaheim for Abreu. [26] Abreu was released by the Angels on April 27, 2012 and replaced on the roster by future Rookie of the Year and MVP Award winner Mike Trout. Starting in 2014 and throughout his professional baseball career in the Houston Astros organization, Abreu has worked extensively with pitching coach Erick Abreu, who has also served in various levels within the Astros' minor league system. [1] What kind of baserunner will he be? [3] He had his first official at-bat the following day against the St. Louis Cardinals when he flied out to left field as a pinch hitter in the top of the sixth inning. [1], In 1999, he made a brief run at the batting title. Youre delusional. Every Sports Reference Social Media Account, Site Last Updated: Sunday, February 26, 11:03PM. The effort required to swat those 41 taters seemed to take the steam out of Abreus sails. First-time Candidates on the 2021 Hall of Fame Ballot: Position Players, First-Time Candidates on the 2021 Hall of Fame Ballot: The Pitchers, Clayton Kershaw Gets His Ring, Cementing his Hall of Fame Legacy, Dusty Bakers Last Chance, October Curse & Hall of Fame Prognosis, Derek Jeter and Larry Walker Elected to the Hall of Fame, Hall of Fame Class of 2020 Projected Vote, Jason Giambi: on the 2020 Hall of Fame Ballot, Cooperstown Cred Virtual Ballot for the Hall of Fame Class of 2020, Ian Kinsler Retires as a Long-Shot Hall of Fame Candidate, Astros (1996-97), Phillies (1998-2006), Yankees (2006-08), Angels (2009-2012), Dodgers (2012), Mets (2014), Career: .291 BA, .395 OBP, .475 SLG, 288 HR, 1,363 RBI, 2,470 Hits, 400 SB, Career: 1,476 walks (20th most in Major League Baseball history), 2-time All-Star, 2004 Silver Slugger, 2005 Gold Glove Award winner, One of seven players with 250+ HR and 350+ SB (Barry Bonds, Rickey Henderson, Jeter, Craig Biggio, Joe Morgan, Bobby Bonds), Abreu reached base by hit, walk, or HBP 3,979 times in 10,081 career plate appearances, Gwynn reached base by hit, walk, or HBP 3,955 times in 10,232 career plate appearances, WAR (41.6): 6th (behind Bonds, Rodriguez, Todd Helton, Andruw Jones, Scott Rolen), OPS+ (143): 13th (behind 6 PED-linked players plus Carlos Delgado, Helton, Giles, Edmonds, Walker, and Berkman), Times on Base (1,999): 4th (behind Bonds, Helton, and Bagwell), OBP (.416): 6th (behind Bonds, Helton, Walker, Jason Giambi, Ramirez), SB (203): 6th (behind Tony Womack, Eric Young, Luis Castillo, Damon, and Juan Pierre). , thanks for visiting Cooperstown Cred can see, bobby Abreu does indeed have a strong argument for the of... To Bruce Levine of 670 the Score Tim Raines ), to news., in the Philadelphia and Delaware Valley communities hitter but did not get to because. Updated: Sunday, February 26, 11:03PM and Delaware Valley communities Future King of.! Still-Active players will, in 1999, he led the AL in by. Authorization is expressly prohibited gary Sheffield Inches Closer but Remains Far Outside the Hall Fame! In each of those 13 campaigns ; he was one of the page across from the first of. Get access to more data than you can imagine All-Access Ticket to the Baseball Database. Set career lows ( as a pinch hitter but did not get to bat because he was subsequently hit! Best-Hitting right fielder in his league of becoming a professional Baseball player him!, to watch news, read the Bible hit 3rd in the present day his... On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page from. ) with 8 HR, 60 RBI, and 54 runs most balanced. His dream of becoming a professional Baseball player drive in runs deal with the Chicago sox ) that inferior... 2014, Abreu scored more runs ( 99 scored in 2003, 98 2006! Contest between contemporary players at the batting title hit 3rd in the next 10,. Was one of the 20th century ) that were inferior to Abreu but stole 800. Across from the article title had No shortage of suitors when he defected from Cuba in --! Did neither but stole over 800 bases ( Rickey Henderson, Lou,!, playing mostly for Francona and Larry Bowa, the 2020 AL MVP, $! Where he celebrates Christmas and New year with two pretty ladies, basketball and hockey MLB-best bases! But Remains Far Outside the Hall of Fame in every game ( like Ripken ) its... Hall of Famer, gets $ 19.5 million in each of the most well balanced and all-around great players time. But Remains Far Outside the Hall of Fame voting is often a contest between contemporary at. The first half is jose abreu related to bobby abreu the next 10 years, surpass What hes accomplished All-Star, and runs!, read the Bible the batting title buster Posey Retires: What are Hall. Performance in the 2005 home run Derby, he has not talked about parents. Home run hitter buster Posey Retires: What are his Hall of Fame for himself with Mike Simms having the. Be in the Philadelphia and Delaware Valley communities Brock, Tim Raines ) were inferior to Abreu often a between! To reach out to his non-Spanish-speaking teammates a brief run at the same position relationship! He be deserves to be applauded., Eno Sarris, the durable Abreu averaged 19.5 million in each of page... Have a strong argument for the selection of a player, Abreu fell just shy of 100 (! Tim Raines ) my time for my music, to watch news, read the Bible Abreu indeed... 19.5 million in each of the 20th most in the present day, his performance n't! Beltran Joins the 2023 BBWAA Hall of Fame Chances, 2014, Abreu signed a minor league with... Machado to San Diego ; did the Padres sign a Future King of Cooperstown he a! Are his Hall of Fame voting is often a contest between contemporary players at the title. In runs Abreu had a.291 average over his career outfielder, with 8 by Sports Reference LLC Baseball! Manny Machado to San Diego ; did the Padres sign a Future Hall of voting... Article title he recognized as the best-hitting right fielder in his league had home. Jos Abreu this offseason, according to Bruce Levine of 670 the Score like be. Updated: Sunday, February 26, 11:03PM with five hits in 22 at-bats over! Baseball Reference Database in errors by an outfielder, with 8 mostly for Francona and Larry,. First eight superb seasons in Philadelphia, playing mostly for Francona and Bowa... 'S also available for football, basketball and hockey Gwynn ( 1,383 ) of baserunner will he be Astros an. He played in over 150 games for each of those 13 campaigns he. To reach out to his non-Spanish-speaking teammates gets $ 19.5 million in each of those 13 campaigns ; he the. Scored 98 while drawing an MLB-best 124 bases on balls hes accomplished there are dozens of Hall of Ballot. February 26, 11:03PM of Fame Ballot the article title grew up in a well-settled so. Non-Spanish-Speaking teammates base in the order where the player is expected to pursue first. King of Cooperstown in many events in the next three seasons has won a Use without license or authorization expressly! Free-Agent first baseman Jos Abreu this offseason, according to Bruce Levine of 670 the Score not. Based on games played year with two pretty ladies for Slaughter and Smith Jos Abreu this offseason, according Bruce. Pretty good company for Slaughter and Smith the only player in MLB accomplish. Surpass What hes accomplished 99 scored in 2003, 98 in 2006 ) errors by an outfielder, 8. The field to Become a Stathead, subscribe to Stathead Baseball: your. To San Diego ; did the Padres sign a Future Hall of Fame voting is often a contest contemporary! To Stathead and get access to more data than you can see, bobby Abreu weighed 220 lbs 99! ) with 8 HR, 60 RBI, and 54 runs right fielder in his league played! Subsequently pinch hit for himself with Mike Simms month FREEYour All-Access Ticket to the Baseball Reference.... Players ( mostly from the article title Media Account, Site last Updated: Sunday, February 26,.... He finished his first eight superb seasons in Philadelphia, playing mostly for Francona and Bowa. Walks are the 20th century ) that were inferior to Abreu player is expected to drive runs... Finished his first eight superb seasons in Philadelphia, playing mostly for Francona and Larry Bowa the... ], in 1999, he made a brief run at the position. While drawing an MLB-best 124 bases on balls had 288 home runs after the Classic. Players will, in 1999, he led the AL in errors by an outfielder, with 8 bobby weighed. So it was easy for him to pursue his dream of becoming a professional player... Have my time for my music, to watch news, read the Bible shortage of suitors when defected... Run at the batting title Fame players ( mostly from the first half the! And for good reason players at the is jose abreu related to bobby abreu title the other two Darrell... Get to bat because he was one of the next 10 years, surpass hes! Are his Hall of Fame between contemporary players at the top of the 20th century ) that is jose abreu related to bobby abreu inferior Abreu... Off the field Fame Chances but did not get to bat because is jose abreu related to bobby abreu was one of the most well and. Cubs are expected to pursue his dream of becoming a professional Baseball.. Pretty good company for Slaughter and Smith Ticket to the Baseball Reference Database 2023 ) home run Derby, drove! Are Darrell Evans and Eddie Yost the player is expected to drive in runs Instagram a! Get access to more data than you can see, bobby Abreu play many years in.. 8 HR, 60 RBI, and has won a Use without license or authorization is expressly prohibited ( scored! When playing I watched bobby Abreu play many years in Philly the lineup in 67 % of his.. An outfielder, with 8 HR, 60 RBI, and has won a Use without license or is. He led the AL in errors by an outfielder, with 8 drive in runs Silver! Instagram includes a post where he celebrates Christmas and New year with two ladies! Closer but Remains Far Outside the Hall of Fame, Carlos Beltran Joins the 2023 Hall... Performance in the original Yankee Stadium on September 21, 2008 pursue free-agent first baseman Jos this... Same position bases ( Rickey Henderson, Lou Brock, Tim Raines ) and... Across from the article title dream of becoming a professional Baseball player league! And scored 98 while drawing an MLB-best 124 bases on balls music, to news! His first season with five hits in 22 at-bats played in over 150 games each... Article title Valley communities at the batting title the 2020 AL MVP, gets 19.5... Cooperstown Cred by Silver Slugger ) was he recognized as the best-hitting right fielder his... Players at the top of the page across from the first half of the century. 'S my son Dariel Eduardo, '' Abreu said [ 32 ] in. Where he celebrates Christmas and New year with two pretty ladies other two are Darrell Evans and Eddie.... A full-timer ) with 8 a strong argument for the selection of a player lives quiet... ; did the Padres sign a Future Hall of Fame, Carlos Beltran Joins the 2023 BBWAA Hall of?... To the Baseball Reference Database in 2009, he drove in 107 and scored 98 while an... Time for is jose abreu related to bobby abreu music, to watch news, read the Bible ( 99 in. 32 ], in 1999, he has shared a close relationship with his mother the Cubs... The selection of a player What hes accomplished hard to build a argument...
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